Hot Rod Status

[Ozzker]

Allright, so I have a funky question for you guys. Back from my Camaro days, and well from the VW scene, I have heard it mentioned a few times that if you complete an engine swap to a vehicle you can register it as a hotrod of some sort and be able to have revised, or no emissions guidelines. Now, I have two questions about this to anyone that may be more familiar with the process then me (Scotto you have a 350 in your Jeep right?). First off, would my 5spd swap qualify the Pathy for hotrod status, it isn't an engine swap,but it is a major driveline component!! And secondly, if the answer to the first question is yes, how does hotrod status work, would I need to re-safty the Pathy, or is it just a piece of paper and bam no more emissions, or something in between?

Anybody with any insight would be amazing, I'd love to get the Pathy running right, but with the idle CO% at over 3x the limit, I am looking at possible temp fix's, because I need it on the road!!

[Nd4SpdSe]

My Mazda I had he 1.8 swapped out for the 2.5 V6 and it classified as a hot rod, didn't need it for emissions tho, she passed beautifully under the specs of the old motor, lol

Basically, a hot rod is when you swap a motor into a vehicle where the motor wasn't an option from the factory. Scotty's Jeep is a perfect example since we all know Jeeps didn't come with 350's. My Mazda on the other hand, the swap was pure bolt in and almost physically indistinguishable from the 1.8. My Mx-3 had 2 motor options for it's year. a SOHC 1.6L 88HP inline 4cyl, or a 130hp 1.8L V6. I could swap (bolt-in) any 3 flavors of the 2.5L V6, the 165hp version from Mazda Mx6/626 and Ford Probes, the 170hp version out of the Mazda Millenia, but I got the Japanese imported version making 198hp. Regardless, the 2.5L V6 was not available in any model of any trim of the Mx-3, so they have no ability to perform a proper emission test on the car. This is where the hot rod status comes into effect. All I would of needed is official paperwork from a Mazda dealership confirming the motor that's in the car and that it wasn't a option in the car. Say I had the 4cyl and decided to swap it to the 1.8L V6, despite how much that has to be changed in the engine bay to accept the V6 (all bolt in, but different bay configurations), it would still fall under the regular emission tests, but now for the V6 rather than the 4cyl.

Swapping to a 5-speed doesn't qualify since it does not affect the motor at all, and the 5-speed was a factory option anyway, so you're not doing anything that isn't in the books for them to be able to test it.

[Ozzker]

My Mazda I had he 1.8 swapped out for the 2.5 V6 and it classified as a hot rod, didn't need it for emissions tho, she passed beautifully under the specs of the old motor, lol

Basically, a hot rod is when you swap a motor into a vehicle where the motor wasn't an option from the factory. Scotty's Jeep is a perfect example since we all know Jeeps didn't come with 350's. My Mazda on the other hand, the swap was pure bolt in and almost physically indistinguishable from the 1.8. My Mx-3 had 2 motor options for it's year. a SOHC 88HP inline 4cyl, or a 130hp 1.8L V6. I could swap (bolt-in) any 3 flavors of the 2.5L V6, the 165hp version from Mazda Mx6/626 and Ford Probes, the 170hp version out of the Mazda Millenia, but I got the Japanese imported version making 198hp. Regardless, the 2.5L V6 was not available in any model of any trim of the Mx-3, so they have no ability to perform a proper emission test on the car. This is where the hot rod status comes into effect.

Swapping to a 5-speed doesn't qualify since it does not affect the motor at all, and the 5-speed was a factory option anyway, so you're not doing anything that isn't in the books for them to be able to test it.

Thanks for the thorough write up and confirmation Mike, I really appreciate it!!

[Scotto]

Since we're on the topic, and the question is already answered, I'll chime in, too. You know, makes for a longer thread.

The Hot Rod status always confuses people. If the engine jammed into the vehicle was NOT an option from the factory IN THAT YEAR, it then goes Hot Rod, as Mike pointed out. In Ontario, the gov't doesn't care what year or type of engine you want to put into your beloved vehicle (in California it must of the same year or newer), except for a few, small, inconvenient details.

So, answer to question one: No. Not Hot Rod. Reason: No engine swap.

But if you did swap the engine, to say, a SBC 350 there's a very important detail to remember: you must be able to pass emissions using the figures for the engine that was originally in the vehicle. So my SBC 350 needs to be able to meet the standards of the 6-cyl 4L thing that was originally in it. Which happens to be OK, b/c emissions standards for 1988 on 6-cyl are pretty relaxed, as no one knows what Jeeps of that era spewed out, so they set the numbers high. But if the Jeep was originally a 4-cyl I'd be out of luck, as the standards for the 4-cyl, for some reason, are pretty tight.

(Where things get interesting is when you swap a diesel into that gasoline Jeep... Since diesel's don't get e-tested, does my no-longer-gasoline Jeep still need to get tested? The short answer is yes, which is why it is very, very rare to see a Jeep with a diesel in it. The long answer is No, but it takes a lot of time and BS to get the paperwork, otherwise you have a lot of interesting conversations with people every two years to renew the plate.)

When you swap the engine, you have to tell the ministry because it affects things like the ownership details, which in turn affect your insurance details. If the ownership doesn't match the vehicle, there's a problem. If the engine swap is a 4cyl to a 6cyl, and that engine was available for that vehicle, then the ownership details change to show the 6cyl (which in turn changes the emission requirements.) And so it follows for an engine not offered for the vehicle in that year. Remember, it's a computer data-base the mechanic accesses that has details on your vehicle and what the standards are for it. So, you need that data-base to be cool with you.

So, general rule of thumb: If it's written on the ownership, and you change it, you have to tell the government. Note that your ownership says nothing about the transmission, so no update is required. But when you get around to painting it barbie-pink, you'll be on the way over to the MTO.

There is no new safety on Hot Rod vehicle, oddly enough. There should be.

[Ozzker]

Very informative post Scotto, thanks!!

I almost think this is stick worthy, as It answers a lot of MTO related questions, including painting my Pathy barbie pink!

[Morpheus]

most of the questions were answered, but I think I can dumb it up a bit.

Take a 1990 mustang for example. They came with 2 engine options. a 2.3l 4 cylinder, and a 5.0l 8 cylinder (yes, somewhere in there was a v6 option, but I don't remember what years)

so if you take your 1990 mustang 4 cylinder and swap in a 8 cylinder 5.0l engine, it is not considered a hot-rod, because it was an original option for that car, and would be emission tested as a 1990 mustang 8 cylinder, and would need to pass based on that options.

Alternativly, if you swapped in a 7.4l 454ci chevy motor, that's not an option, and would be then considered a hot-rod.

Scotto has more experience based on his jeep, so I'll take his answer on the standards required for passing, however I though it was based on the year of the engine swapped in, so if it was a 1975 chevy motor, that is now in your 1990 mustang, that it had to pass 1975 standards, but I might be wrong on that.

One side-note on a hot-rod status e-test.

A standard vehicle has, 8 or 9 e-tests done in it's life, then it's exempt.

Unless the rules have changed since I was doing e-tests, once a vehicle is tested as a hot-rod, it will require e-tests for the life of the vehicle, it will never be expempt.

[Scotto]

Mike:

My SBC is c.1984. So - in your theory - it shouldn't have to do an e-test, since it's pre-1987. But it's not the case - I have to meet 1988 standards (year of the Heep) for a 6-cyl 4.0L (the engine that was in there originally.) They chose 1987 as their starting point because that is the date for having reasonable data on emissions. Any data from before that came from the company that produced the vehicle, not the EPA, so it's not what we might refer to as unbiased. That's why we don't test for 1975 standards. We don't have them.

I am still under the impression that you get to test, even you faithfully maintain your vehicle for 20 years, for ever. I do believe that the gov't changed that exemption a few years back. If you are 1988 or newer, it's forever. If it's 1987 or previous, it's a 20 year limit, then you're free to go away. But that might be my hot rod status, so that might be why I lost that war.

**Edit: Just looked it up. 1988 and newer: You have to test until your car hits what the gov't calls "classic," at which point you can apply for that category, and watch your insurance sky-rocket. Classic happens at 30 years. So, my 2000 Xterra - in theory - will not have to test in 2030. That's a bit of a wait. I''ll be 62 years old. 1987 and previous: exempt after 20 years.**

It could be worse though. Out East, not only do they get to e-test, but also undergo a safety. And you have to keep stock sized tires on your rig. And the truck can't be lifted, as the bumper has to be the same height as stock.

[Morpheus]

Ya, I'm not well versed in those rules, because I've never run into them, just from what I've "heard"

They should worry more about making rules to prevent stuff like this:

[Morpheus]

As far as the yearly safety inspection, I think it's a good thing. It's scary to think that a car can go 20 years and still be considered "fit" for the road, and the balljoints, etc.. are about the fly off the car..

you're driving beside one of those vehicles with your kids in your back seat, and the other guys kids in his back seat...

I've seen a few cars/trucks go through the shop that come from places that require yearly safety inspections. There's never a thing wrong with them. completely safe to drive on the road. The government should scrap the e-testing, and madate safety inspections at least every couple of years at minimum.

[Scotto]

I'd go for that - swap the e-test for a safety.

But, before you know it, we'll have a safety test. It will generate more $ for the gov't, and not just from the test, but all that HST from parts.

[Nd4SpdSe]

But if you did swap the engine, to say, a SBC 350 there's a very important detail to remember: you must be able to pass emissions using the figures for the engine that was originally in the vehicle. So my SBC 350 needs to be able to meet the standards of the 6-cyl 4L thing that was originally in it.

That actually doesn't sound right. I know for a fact that some people when swapping in the 2.5 on the Mx-3 that have failed when as tested as the original 1.8, but they'll pass when tested as Hot Rod. Despite from my experience, if it's running right it'll pass with flying colors regardless, but besides the point, I know there's a different standard, otherwise there would be no benefit to being tested as a hot rod if you're being tested as the stock. Hot Rod runs the car under 1980 standards.

Took me a bit to find someone who posted the limits for a hot rod test, but I found them:

ASM ~2525rpms (November '06) - 2-Speed Idle Test
HC ppm : 200
CO % : 1.0
NO ppm : N/A

Curb Idle
HC ppm 200
CO % 1.0
NO ppm N/A


ASM ~2525rpms (January '05)
HC ppm : 68
CO % : 0.38
NO ppm : 526

Curb Idle
HC ppm : 200
CO % : 1.0

ASM ~2525rpms (December '02)
HC ppm : 89
CO % : 0.50
NO ppm : 684

Curb Idle
HC ppm : 200
CO % : 1.0

Don't ask my why the limits changed, but that's what's on the papers I got

Hot Rod limits posted for a '93 Mazda MX3 in April 2006, swapped to 2.5 as well

Running
HC (ppm) : 273
CO (%) : 2.17
NO (ppm) : 2868

Idle
HC (ppm) : 300
CO (%) : 1.5
NO (ppm) : N/A

But that doesn't make sense, considering:

(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3