Kinda proud of this (I think)

[buttsy]

Stumbled across this, kind of impressed we were mentioned (in a round about way)

http://autos.sympatico.ca/used-car-guid ... an-5000/21

[Adam]

Cool. They do pwn the poop out of winter.

[Morpheus]

I always thought of the budget for a beater is $500, not $5000.. how many people theese days have an extra 5 grand to buy a 2nd vehicle with?

[Bow_Tied]

No doubt Mike! When I was in college my target was to get 2 years out of a vehicle for $1k including maintenance and purchase price. Easy to do at the time, but not anymore...

[Simon]

Cool. They do pwn the poop out of winter.

God that felt good, it's been too long.

ENGLISH, SON!!!

[Simon]

No doubt Mike! When I was in college my target was to get 2 years out of a vehicle for $1k including maintenance and purchase price. Easy to do at the time, but not anymore...

My dad always had the same philosophy, regardless of what he spent on the vehicle. Over the years, it's gone up, about $2k per year would be considered cheap transportation, in my book.

[Adam]

No doubt Mike! When I was in college my target was to get 2 years out of a vehicle for $1k including maintenance and purchase price. Easy to do at the time, but not anymore...

When I bought my pathfinder my mentality at the time was "it has to last through college then I can dump it"

Cool. They do pwn the poop out of winter.

God that felt good, it's been too long.

ENGLISH, SON!!!

Y u no liek teh way i spek?

[Nd4SpdSe]

Disagree with the Jeep Cherokee
Love the comments about the Aztek
Protege5 is great, but didn't meantion that they'll be rusting away, especially at under $5k
Woo Xterra!
Disagree about the reliability of the Escape, somewhat, people tend to neglect them it seems.

[Adam]

Chevrolet Silverado 4x4
Why? Like the Ford F-150, it's hard to go wrong with a truck for the winter. Just remember that 4X4s don't brake or handle any better than a two-wheel-drive vehicle (it's all down to the tires…really) lest you get a false sense of security.

That is stupid. 4x4s handle the snow way better. Stopping may not be much different but acceleration and handling is loads better. Put 2 xterras next to each other one in 2wd and one in 4wd and floor it in snow. No matter what tires the 4wd will take off way faster.

[Nissanboy97]

why would you "floor it" in the winter in the first place. I understand what hes getting at if you have some decent tires and good driving habits you can have almost as good capability as a 4x4

[Nd4SpdSe]

Chevrolet Silverado 4x4
Why? Like the Ford F-150, it's hard to go wrong with a truck for the winter. Just remember that 4X4s don't brake or handle any better than a two-wheel-drive vehicle (it's all down to the tires…really) lest you get a false sense of security.

That is stupid. 4x4s handle the snow way better. Stopping may not be much different but acceleration and handling is loads better. Put 2 xterras next to each other one in 2wd and one in 4wd and floor it in snow. No matter what tires the 4wd will take off way faster.

Acceleration ISN'T handling.

On 4WD, you should notice, your truck should want to turn LESS. With the front tires pulling, it wants to understeer, but in that case, the rear end will not want to swing out as much. As for braking, 4WD actually had the disadvantage of being heavier, so stopping will be negatively affected.

In the end, if you're a competitent driver, you should see little difference between 2WD and 4WD except in extreme circumstances; you shoudn't be accelerating or turning that hard anyway. It's misplaced confidence and a false sense of security that can easilly land you in trouble when Mr. Newton takes effect, it just means you're going faster than you should be, and going to get that much more in trouble when things go wrong...

In the winter, I'm sure all of us drive around in regular 2WD mode on a regular basis unless you're in a rural area that doesn't/barely get plowed, those rare but severe snow storms, or just playing in the snow.

[Simon]

That is stupid. 4x4s handle the snow way better. Stopping may not be much different but acceleration and handling is loads better. Put 2 xterras next to each other one in 2wd and one in 4wd and floor it in snow. No matter what tires the 4wd will take off way faster.

Acceleration ISN'T handling.

There is the key.

Adam, pull your head out. The attitude you're portraying is exactly that which finds many 4x4 owners in the ditch because they think they're invincible. 4x4's should actually go slower than cars in winter (actually, any time of year) simply because they're heavier, and more difficult to stop.

Whether you're in 4wd or not, you should drive as if you're in 2. Because in terms of stopping and steering, 4wd makes little to no difference.

[Scotto]

I'm not invincible?

Oh man. I stop by the forum, and what happens? My ego gets crushed. Now I'm sad.

[Scotto]

On a more serious note, I live out in the country, and the skools I drive to are out in the middle of nowhere. We get the snow, and nasty crosswinds that destroy people's lives every year.

Rarely do I put the the truck in 4x4 - by the time you've figured out there's a problem, it's too late. Except in very unusual circumstances does the driver of my little truck hop out, lock the hubs, and look for the 4x4 to get him home. And when that occurs, the driver is moving incredibly slowly and very carefully, because he knows the 4x4 is fooling him into thinking he's actually on the road, and not surfing over a loose fitting of snow and ice that is being hidden...

Long story short, Adam, there's no handling in 4x4. You're simply moving forward.... inevitably... and if you listen closely, you can hear the approach of your own death.

[studum]

I'm glad that most people have their heads on straight.

Thank you for posting an answers that makes sense. One thing that has always bothered me and always will is when you see people in 4x4 SUVs and trucks (and even AWD cars) who think that they own the road in the snow. Having the ability to go faster doesn't mean you have to, or should for that matter. Safe driving in any circumstances means driving according to road conditions, traffic is a part of those road conditions. Most of the time it isn't you that you have to worry about, it's the others sharing the road with you. I don't blame people for going too slow when road conditions are sketchy, I thank them for slowing the pace down. Now, if you're on a road on your own and you choose to go faster than you need to be and you end up in a ditch or over a curb because you were going to fast then you have no one to blame but yourself.

I've driven almost every drivetrain configuration in the snow over the years. FWD, RWD, AWD and 4x4. Although AWD / 4x4 may be more capable I believe that FWD with a good set of snow tires is the safest - especially for new drivers.

Order of safety (IMO) - Snow tires should be on them all - although even I'm guilty of running A/T's through the winter on my truck this year.
FWD
AWD
4x4
RWD

Like others have said in reality you rarely even need to think about engaging 4x4 during the winter unless in rural areas (or having fun ). And for what it's worth, one thing I will never get tired of is seeing that overconfident 4x4 driver in a ditch 10 minutes after watching her/him blow by you on the road.

[Nd4SpdSe]

I've driven almost every drivetrain configuration in the snow over the years. FWD, RWD, AWD and 4x4. Although AWD / 4x4 may be more capable I believe that FWD with a good set of snow tires is the safest - especially for new drivers.

Order of safety (IMO) - Snow tires should be on them all - although even I'm guilty of running A/T's through the winter on my truck this year.
FWD
AWD
4x4
RWD

Oh very, my parents 626 with snow tires would literally drive through anything that would let it keep the tires touching the ground, I tried getting stuck but I juts couldn't, lol. As much as I love the truck and it being 4x4, there was something about driving a (properly equipped) FWD car in the snow just made it so simple, yet so effective.

[nige]

The vehicle has barely anything to do with safety. Safety is an illusion. It's all the drivers and how familiar and competent they are with the vehicle. That being said, it's impossible for everyone to drive sensibly. I don't understand why suburban and urban Southern Ontario can't embrace winter instead of fighting it by spewing chemicals everywhere so people can drive like a$$holes 4 seasons of the year instead of 3. Driving on sanded hard pack snow is much easier (to me) than wondering if the salty, wet pavement is frozen or not. Ice is the worst regardless of what tires you are on. Yes, snow tires grip better in the snow, but who knows if people using them follow the same logic as ignorant, over confident 4wd owners in assuming they can handle whatever mother nature throws at them? I mean most people who buy snows probably just slap them on and NEVER adjust their pressures based on road conditions. Regardless, if you find yourself driving way slower than everyone else around you, GTF off the road and stay home until they are cleared.

I have driven a Miata on snows and all seasons through the winter, 2-door Chevy Tracker on M+S tires, Samurai on AT's, Nissan Quest on all seasons, pathfinders on M+S, all seasons and AT's, 4wd Ford econoline van on studded snows (too bad they are illegal in southern ontario), 2wd dakota, 4wd ram HD, volvos, bmw sedan, chevy corsica, murano, audi a4 quattro blah blah blah you get the point.

Out of all the cars and trucks, i liked my pathfinder on the 32" BFG AT's that i bought from nismojunky. That setup felt the most planted and sturdy out of them all. If i could change anything, it would be the 11.5" tire width to something narrower and a 5spd! My hubs get locked in December and stay that way for the remainder of the winter. The audi A4 quattro was a close second, but i hate the tiptronic and auto trans. The 5spd miata on snows was the funnest, but it didn't handle more than a few cm of snow on the road before it ran out of steam; it was too light and like most cars today, didn't have enough clearance, but boy the F/R weight balance was close to perfect! The tracker was alright, but again, too light and the wheelbase was a bit short. A stiff crosswind nearly blew me off an icy road between guelph and k-w. IMO A 2wd pickup is useless. You have load the box with weight and get some decent AT's or snows for it, and even then it's not that great since the weight balance may be rear biased.

I absolutely detest front wheel drive cars in the winter (and mostly summer). I think it's too much to ask for the front tires to be tasked with braking, turning and accelerating. They go through the deeper snow a bit better than RWD and you can sometimes make it up steep slippery slopes by going up the hill in reverse (more weight on the drive wheels), but once they lose traction (usually understeer), there isn't much chance to recover. A heavier car will hold it's course better, but once it loses traction, it's even harder to recover than a lighter car. I don't understand some of the logic here.. you say a 4WD has a tendency to understeer because the front tires are pulling, so wouldn't it be just as bad, if not worse in a FWD? I also find it hard to understand the argument that more weight is bad? More weight on the tires will reduce the effect that the low friction surface has on the tires. Imagine your empty xterra trying to stop on hardpack, and then imagine it doing the same but carrying 5 people? I think it would stop shorter with more weight (given it wasn't overloaded). Using an empty and full dumptruck would be another way to look at it. From what I understand. FWD exists because it's cheaper to manufacture and allows for more cabin and engine compartment room... not because it performs better than 4WD or FR, RR or MR layouts I do agree that you shouldn't really notice the difference between RWD and 4WD unless accelerating on loose surfaces.

I feel a heavier, well-balanced, mid length wheelbase, manual trans. 4WD (or AWD) suv/wagon with a rear LSD or locker, good clearance provided by tall, skinny snow tires on 16" wheels works the best for drivers of any skill (like most of the recommended "beaters" in the article). You are able to clear deep snow, have full control of the drivetrain, good grip on packed snow, and the ability to adjust your tire pressures as the environment demands. The extra weight of a wagon/suv gives you better traction, and also the ability to cut through snow drifts and ruts thanks to skinny tires. Wheelbase length makes it stable too. If you don't know how to drive a manual or why it's better for the winter, shut off your computer and go learn right now.

And i don't think Adam was endorsing flooring your truck around in the snow. He was simply making the point a 4wd accels. better than a 2wd on snow. When it comes down to it, an xterra in 4wd will be able to maneuver in the snow much better than if it was in 2wd. If anyone disagrees, go ask a rally driver why their best cars are 4wd.

Nissanboy, I will give you a good, albeit rare, example of when the traction of a 4wd/awd can help you avoid an accident. My parents in their 01 R50 were on their way home from Florida one year and they got to the Chatham area of the 401. It was very stormy and cold and they came upon a traffic jam caused by an accident. My father slowed down in time, but some drivers behind him didn't. Rather than sitting there and getting rear ended, he drove the truck into the ditch and proceeded to drive around the jam and accident and continue on his way. I just read the news and I saw something similar: http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/827258

I also fully endorse the law Quebec passed (mandatory snows). If you can't afford snow-specific tires, try some BFG AT's or similar AT. They work fine in the winter and as a bonus, will handle most of the trails of Ontario in the summer. I find it incredibly expensive and difficult to find a snow specific tire for trucks bigger than 31's (without stupid 18" wheels)

IMO we should also add a mandatory slippery driving course test to our licensing program similar to what Finland requires. We should include the emergency driving tactics that allow you to avoid accidents such as shifting to N, locking the brakes, steer and release the brakes (for those of us with no ABS ) These tests and courses should be administered in a basic, barebones car provided by the MTO. That ought to weed out most people that are too stupid to drive in inclement weather and also rely on technology (ABS, VDC, ESC, HDC, TC etc, etc) to make up for their bad driving habits. Driving well is hard and requires maturity, respect, developed skill and great attention. Let's keep it that way.

[Jayman]

Well said Nige, well said...

[studum]

Just as with any subject there will be two schools of thought on everything - each with their followers and believers.

Are skinnier winter tires better than fatter winter tires or vise versa? Skinny tires cut through while fat tires plow and compact with a greater contact patch. I side with the skinnier tires to cut through snow and slush and get to the asphalt.

Are heavier vehicles better than lighter vehicles? Heavier vehicles push the tires to the ground harder but they also carry more momentum when you need to stop / maneuvre. It's physics, even though the heavier vehicle will push the wheels towards the ground harder any benifet that, that offers is quickly negated by the additional kinetic energy that is stored and must be dealt with in that heavier vehicle due to it's mass.

MT vs AT? MT offers greater control over the vehicle's dynamics. But whether we like it or not an AT is always there and historically pretty reliable.

I will still 100% stand by my statement that in general FWD is the safest platform as a winter car, especially for beginner drivers or those who are less comfortable in the snowy weather. Unfortunately most people out there don't know how their vehicle is going to react in a less than optimal situation. The fact is that whether you intend to or not you can snap oversteer an AWD or 4x4 without intent in the slippery stuff and if your instincts don't take over immediately you're likely pooched. The undeniable fact is that FWD cars are much more predictable when they break traction. The only real time you can get it to oversteer in the slippery stuff is either through the hand brake or through shifting the balance of the car around a corner (scandanavien flick or trottle off corner turn in). Usually the only vehicle mis-bahviour a driver will have to contend with in a FWD car during the winter is throttle-on oversteer, which is much easier to deal with for most than oversteer. If you're understeering in FWD you let off the gas and point where you want to go, oversteering then hit the gas and point where you want to go. I'm not saying that you can't get a FWD car to spin, just saying that it's easier to spin an AWD, 4x4 or RWD than a FWD.

I will also whole-heartedly disagree with your statement regarding LSD's and that they are great for any skill of drivers. Yes, I believe that for an experienced driver they are benificial for vehicle control. However for someone who doesn't understand them and how they work any hint of rear wheel spin will step out the rear end vs just letting a tire spin a bit with a better chance of keeping the car pointed at where it was going. That was my experience with my Subaru's (one with LSD and the other without).

My statement about slower drivers and traffic may have been misunderstood. Your reference is when one car is moving slower than the rest. I agree that in that situation that driver presents a hazard to everyone else on the road - in addition to be terribly annoying. What I was referring to is when traffic flow as a whole is moving slower than the norm due to the conditions and someone goes flying by because they can.

In my opinion the real problem these days are the vehicles themselves. They do so much for the drivers now that the drivers barely have to think - they just point and go. ABS, VDC, EBD, brake interruption, etc. The list goes on. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not denying or arguing the benifets of these systems. What I'm trying to say is that most people don't really know how to drive anymore - they rely on the fact that their car will do it for them.

If it were a perfect world and everyone really knew how to drive - as opposed to operate a vehicle - the best winter car would be the one that suits their lifestyle the best. As we all know that's not the reality, and for anyone who has to ask the question I will answer with a confident "anything FWD" - and yes put winter tires on it.

Perhaps I've gone a bit off topic.

[Nd4SpdSe]

Note: I was writing a reply as studum posted his, so there will be a few points repeated, but I agree with everything he said.

Driving on sanded hard pack snow is much easier (to me) than wondering if the salty, wet pavement is frozen or not.

I completely agree!

I mean most people who buy snows probably just slap them on and NEVER adjust their pressures based on road conditions.

Absolutely, I'll drop my pressure way down in the worst conditions, it makes a hell of a difference.

A heavier car will hold it's course better, but once it loses traction, it's even harder to recover than a lighter car.

Which contradicts:

I also find it hard to understand the argument that more weight is bad? More weight on the tires will reduce the effect that the low friction surface has on the tires. Imagine your empty xterra trying to stop on hardpack, and then imagine it doing the same but carrying 5 people? I think it would stop shorter with more weight (given it wasn't overloaded). Using an empty and full dumptruck would be another way to look at it.

It's about science. Your FWD example is perfect. the front tires pulling and turning, doing 2 jobs. The same goes for weight. You can add more weight for traction, but that weight becomes a double-end sworn and affects your braking, and also acceleration (which isn't as important here, but is still affected) but also, gas milleage. With the added weight, you have more mass working against you when you're trying to change your speed or direction. Right out of the books:

By this formula, the greater its mass, the less a body accelerates under given force. Masses m defined by the formula (1) and (2) are equal because the formula (2) is a consequence of the formula (1) if mass does not depend on time and speed. Thus, "mass is the quantitative or numerical measure of body’s inertia, that is of its resistance to being accelerated".

This meaning of a body's inertia therefore is altered from the original meaning as "a tendency to maintain momentum" to a description of the measure of how difficult it is to change the momentum of a body. *wiki

What you gain in mass for traction is counteracted by the mass being used to keep the vehicle wanting to move when you're trying to stop. This affect gets worse as the speeds raise.There will be a point where when the speeds are low enough that you'll see the benefits of the added weight for stopping, but those speeds I would think would be so low that any benefits would almost be negligable. If you don't have ABS, the added weight may improve the ability of the vehicle to dig in and make a wedge under the tires to slow it down better, but that added weight will negatively affect the handling/maneuvring characteristics of the vehicle unless you're at an extreme sideways slide again, helping to dig in, but in conditions where traction is near 0, the less weight the better.

I don't understand some of the logic here.. you say a 4WD has a tendency to understeer because the front tires are pulling, so wouldn't it be just as bad, if not worse in a FWD? FWD exists because it's cheaper to manufacture and allows for more cabin and engine compartment room... not because it performs better than 4WD or FR, RR or MR layouts I do agree that you shouldn't really notice the difference between RWD and 4WD unless accelerating on loose surfaces.

Not really, with 4WD you have the rear wheels pushing, so understeer isn't as bad. No one was saying why FWD exists, we're mentioning the inherit benefits of FWD in these conditions. Man, before my day it was almost all RWD and radial tires, and they managed in the winter, somehow, lol.

Using an empty and full dumptruck would be another way to look at it.

Dump trucks are heavy machines, and they can carry en enoumous amount of weight compared to their empty weight. There is a point where weight had it's advantages, and I really don't want to imagine the math involved in figuring out the limits of where it is and isn't, but simplicity, sometimes you need weight, snow plows would be a perfect example. They need the weight to push against the snow, if they were too light,the snow could easilly push back. It doesn't matter how much power they have, if they can't put it to the ground, it's no good. In ice and snow, you may not see the benefits of an extra few hundred pounds, but only the disadvantages of it, but a few extra tonnes, well, that's a whole different ball game.
And just as a note, it's totally different for those adding weight for rear end stability and traction on a RWD vehicle, I'm talking about stopping only.

And i don't think Adam was endorsing flooring your truck around in the snow. He was simply making the point a 4wd accels. better than a 2wd on snow. When it comes down to it, an xterra in 4wd will be able to maneuver in the snow much better than if it was in 2wd. If anyone disagrees, go ask a rally driver why their best cars are 4wd.

Well, we were talking about handling, not acceleration. We know it'll accelerate quicker, same as adding weight in the rear for the drive wheels on a RWD vehicle, but in the end, improving acceleration should be the least on the list of things you want to improve, braking and handling come above in priority.

4WD rally is totally different than regular driving. You could also ask why they don't use AWD in most road racing? Rally drivers drive at extreme speeds, in low-traction environments while making big power, the more power they can put to the road, the better they are. The irony about rally racing is that with their slides, how they corner, would actually be an all-wheel drift which is actually a controlled sliding understeer, with the point-and-shoot corner exit ability of a FWD car, something I did love about driving FWD in the winter (and having an e-brake ). In rally, you drive your car like a FWD car with more power and grip, not like a RWD car.

I drive in 4WD in bad conditions sometimes, cause I'm a jack rabbit at starts and hate sitting there spinning, but also keeps the rear end more stable, I've only ever driven FWD cars until I had my truck, so it's part comfort factor too. You can probably look at corner stability as a handling characteristic, but also, the attitude of how the truck wants to corner in 4x4 (understeer) is also handling.

I'll see if it makes sence if I put it this way, if you're taking a corner beyond your limit of traction, in 4x4, you'll understeer, vearing into the lane of oncomming traffic. In RWD, it depends. If you put your brakes on or slow down, transfering your weight to the front of the truck, you'll understeer just the same. If you keep your speed steady, your rear end will come loose, and could actually keep it in your lane, but in the extremes of losing it completely, you'll either spin out onto the shoulder, or again, into oncomming traffic.

Comparing understeer vs oversteer in these conditions, understeer is not being able to turn enough, thus your handling is compromised. Oversteer is too much turn, driver error to the limit beyond traction, but didn't compromise handling since it's turning ability wasn't affected. You could argue to say if there was more weight in the rear, it wouldn't want to oversteer so easilly, and you're right, but maybe it would of understeered in that case instead? The problem is, you need to have a specific weight for a specific scenario (speed, corner angle, traction or lack there of, vehicle weight, vehicle balance) , so unless you can adjust your balast instantly on the fly, it's impossible to find or have the "perfect" amout of added weight in the vehicle since every situation is different.

I also fully endorse the law Quebec passed (mandatory snows). [...] IMO we should also add a mandatory slippery driving course test to our licensing program similar to what Finland requires. We should include the emergency driving tactics that allow you to avoid accidents such as shifting to N, locking the brakes, steer and release the brakes (for those of us with no ABS ) These tests and courses should be administered in a basic, barebones car provided by the MTO. That ought to weed out most people that are too stupid to drive in inclement weather and also rely on technology (ABS, VDC, ESC, HDC, TC etc, etc) to make up for their bad driving habits. Driving well is hard and requires maturity, respect, developed skill and great attention. Let's keep it that way.

Totally agree

Sorry, don't mean to nicpick your post, just want to explain how I see and understand things...